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  1. #21
    Ski Shop Owner & Equipment Specialist - Voted Best Boot fitter in Australia (SIA Australia Awards 2013) Paul Oberin's Avatar
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    Yeah I know that, what i was saying is that Marker have made some serious changes to the 2009 Markers that are starting to show up this year, so far I have only seen them on the newest K2's, hopefully they will flow through to the other brands that use Marker as well.
    In the past Marker have copped some bashing for being a binding that pre releases when pushed hard, and that will not be the case with these new ones.

  2. #22
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    does the pivot series ie. p10, p12, p14 have upward release toes?
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  3. #23
    Silence
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    99% sure they do, i know the p10 & 12 did.

  4. #24
    Ski Shop Owner & Equipment Specialist - Voted Best Boot fitter in Australia (SIA Australia Awards 2013) Paul Oberin's Avatar
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    Originally posted by JakeK-T:
    does the pivot series ie. p10, p12, p14 have upward release toes?
    Yes, they do release in an upwards twisting direction but technically not completely vertical other wise you would pop out almost every time you landed a jump.

  5. #25
    Snowatch Patrol Rednut's Avatar
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    remember my stack at falls...
    Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer!

  6. #26
    Ski Shop Owner & Equipment Specialist - Voted Best Boot fitter in Australia (SIA Australia Awards 2013) Paul Oberin's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Rednut:
    remember my stack at falls...
    Yes, and the binding rotated at the toe as a result of a backward twisting fall and had to be pushed back into position, probably saved you from a nasty injury.
    They are a great design, they do have a good amount of upwards compensation, which make them great for twin tip skis.

  7. #27
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    and, correct me if i'm wrong, fks155/185 do not (release in an upward twisting motion)
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  8. #28
    Silence
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    I may have to grab those 14's with the geze toe. just need to justify the purchase because i don't have a spare pair of skis to put them on yet..

  9. #29
    Silence
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    Originally posted by JakeK-T:
    and, correct me if i'm wrong, fks155/185 do not (release in an upward twisting motion)
    155/185 do not upward release, 120's do.

  10. #30
    Ski Shop Owner & Equipment Specialist - Voted Best Boot fitter in Australia (SIA Australia Awards 2013) Paul Oberin's Avatar
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    Originally posted by JakeK-T:
    and, correct me if i'm wrong, fks155/185 do not (release in an upward twisting motion)
    As far as I know every binding on the market does now, and that is a good thing, it has saved many ACL's.

  11. #31
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    but 120s aren't all metal, are they?
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  12. #32
    Silence
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    the 120 has a different toe to the 155/185. THe 120 has upward release and the 155/185 doesn't.

    e.g



    Top toepiece is the same as the 120, bottom - same as the 155/185 - one piece not going anywhere, sorry about the res.

  13. #33
    Silence
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    To reiterate, i am 110% positive that the FKS155 and the FKS185 do NOT HAVE upward toe release, but the 120 does. However the 155/185 toepieces are stronger, more metal, more durable.

  14. #34
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    yep, like everything it's pretty much a trade-off.


    my next question would be the 360 degree heel vs the +/-10 or so pivot heel. my understanding is that you only need a couple of degrees of rotation (depending on sole length of course) to be released from the toe. if that's correct, emphasis on the if, what's the advantage of the full 360?
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  15. #35
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    Well now you are talking about FKS v. Pivot series..

    The differences/benefits/downfalls between pivots and TTs don't just like in the 30deg v. 260deg - it's the way the binding operates, screw pattern etc etc
    The turntable design makes the binding safe in most falls. If you are talking about falls where you want to release from the toe / in a fall where you are pivoting off your toe, or your ski is kicked off to the side, they (FKS) will be more inclined to lock you in, until something gives (your knee or ankle usually). This kind of fall is fairly rare, and is almost never a problem.
    Once again though, VERY rare for this type of fall to occur..if it does though

    With FKS, my take on the idea behind the design is it forces your boot to pivot from the center of your leg, instead of behind it on the boot lug. this makes it safer in almost all falls.

    the consumer level pivot is an awesome binding and I will forever ask the same question 'why' to rossi reps when i see then, and they will forever not be able to understand the logic either... The pivot takes everything about the turntable, and makes it easier to use. The release is also much smoother. However, the boot-to-ski interface tends to get a little sloppy over time due to the smaller pivot diameter. The pivot toe is prolly the safest toe piece in the world, but also is a lil sloppy. The turntable is also a bit burlier, although the pivot is plenty strong. The mostly metal turntables can also be rebuilt/repainted, while the pivots have a shorter overall lifespan.

    Bottom line you are talking about 155/185's being majority STEEL and the consumer pivots (10/12/14) being mostly plastic

    If you aren't really heavy on your bindings go the pivots. If you trash your gear then go the FKS/P Race

    I had someone on here or ski.com.au offer close to 300 for my p12s and out of principle i'm keeping them.

    Personally i like having solid bindings under my boots. 18din is too much for me though..

    The choice for me is between the FKS120 (Upward release + tt heel), 155 Metal toe - stronger, pivot 12 or 14, or the old school FKX/geze toe - each have their benefits, but i guess i'm a ROssi Guy..


    Trivia:
    May be an urban myth, but I heard somewhere that an FKS185 set at the maximum DIN is stronger than a human femur which will spiral fracture at a DIN of 14 - guess it just takes the right type of fall..

    [size="1"][ 23.06.2008, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Silence ][/size]

  16. #36
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    wow - if that happens to your femur i'd hate to see the destruction on your tib/fib/acl... a mate of mine had his femur broken in 9 places at school and he 'technically' died three times on the way to the hospital. not nice.

    back to the binders... i really liked the 'feel' of my old p12s, can't really attribute it to anything in particular but i guess it felt more like ski/boot/binding were one item ie. the ski flexed pretty much exactly how it did flat, didn't feel like i was being pushed forward all the time and most importantly i didn't get thrown out whenever i slightly missed a switch landing (but did get thrown out when i completely missed them). having said that, i haven't really skied alot of binders, mainly demo rossi's and sally's in the early days then a handful of days on p12s and 1 or 2 on jesters
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  17. #37
    Ski Shop Owner & Equipment Specialist - Voted Best Boot fitter in Australia (SIA Australia Awards 2013) Paul Oberin's Avatar
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    We tend to differ in our opinions on the upward release on the one piece binding that you call the FKS, I have some FKS here with independant wings also, my thoughts are from actually pulling them apart and seeing how they work, and the Look toe design cannot prevent an upward movement in a backward twisting fall, sure the race version makes it highly unlikely due to the very heavy springs, but back off the springs to below the lowest setting and you may see it is capable of it, if you put the ski on the floor and stand on the front of the toe piece, it will move upwards.
    The key to it is its design, Look use a post mounted on a plate which is fixed to the skis by screws, if you back off the springs totally you can remove the housing and springs and see that the post has a flat spot facing the front, this flat spot is what keeps the binding facing forward, and the DIN force is varied by a spring with a flat washer at one end pushing against this flat spot on the post, if an upwards force is applied to the toepiece in a backward fall, the spring within the housing is compressed allowing a limited amount of upward movement.
    The Pivot toe is a variation of this old design and takes it one step further and the wings which hold the boot down can also rotate a full 360 degrees if required, this allows for a more consistent diagonal release in the toe independent of the DIN setting to some degree.

    Pull a few apart or back off the springs and you will see how they work a lot better.

    If jumping and landing with falling backwards hard, most heels will move backward enough for your toe to stop holding the boot lug down anyway, that is regardless of being a step in design or PX / Pivot design.
    With regards to the two different TT heels, the one that rotates 360 degrees does not allow release sideways at the heel like some people think, it only assists the toe in release just like the other one, it was stopped from being made simply so as to allow the heel to recentre by itself rather than have the user bend down and recentre it after a fall, some people didn't like the fact that it had a spring holding it in centre and thought this wasn't as good as the 360 degree model in regards to helping the toe release, the newer one was also mounted on a plate for a greater range of adjustment to cater for more boot sizes, as the full 360 degree one didn't have a great range of adjustment, if the user bought new boots.

  18. #38
    Silence
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    Interesting, although i've never been into racing, I always thought the RK(?) plate was a race thing?

  19. #39
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    the spring responsible for re-centre-ing in the pivot wouldn't be overly strong would it? similar to say the ones in brakes?

    ps. only found out what din stood for the other day, too bad it wasn't on any of my exams
    once you go black, you never go back

  20. #40
    Ski Shop Owner & Equipment Specialist - Voted Best Boot fitter in Australia (SIA Australia Awards 2013) Paul Oberin's Avatar
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    You are correct it is not all that strong, but the 360 degree one allowed almost no resistance to the release of the toe, every bit of resistance adds to the pressure on the toe release, all be it very minor, still even with that spring they are way better than a step in heel design.

    [size="1"][ 23.06.2008, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Paul Oberin ][/size]

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