5% of your lift ticket is insurance

[Vet]

About $A5 of an Oz day ticket is for insurance, whereas its 90NZcents in NZ. In that lift ticket price is 'stamp duty' and gst (on which you pay 'gst on the stamp duty' + 10% of that as gst again": a double dip by our friends in Canberra imo.

Not surprisingly, the Alpine Resort Coordinating Council's reviews of 'where are we going' now has the answer - "we're going overseas". The nabobs just have NFI about operating costs, or why places choses to remain closed and unheated even when there's a dump in late september like last season.

[Jahoota]

sadly for oz resorts the ever cheaper airfares to visit the cousie bro's over the ditch and a good x-rate has meant there is a reasonably priced alternative if you dont feel like having your sphicter enlarged at a ticket office here during winter. Its always been like that but the $$$$ gap just keeps widening. It was a good deal in 85 & 86 when I went (bugger all aussies there to boot!) but its even better value now. Heck, it will eventually just be a domestic flight not an international one making even easier.

I'm not sure what the oz resorts are going to do (I have no suggested solution) but clearly the days of the only ski/board at home punter have long gone.

[spaz]

Apparently Perisher has the most expensive lift tickets in the world, followed by Aspen then Thredbo.

[Butters]

yeh well it's certainly not the best resort in the world

[quagmire]

and their argument that they need to charge high prices to account for the short season and snowmaking infrastructure will mean they eventually price themselves out of the market. I dont see this time being to far away. Its just not sustainable.

It will be hard for resorst to continue to run as businesses with increasing outlay for decresing return. We shall call this point in time "Peak Snow"

[Podlettte]

Apparently Perisher has the most expensive lift tickets in the world, followed by Aspen then Thredbo.

at the current excahnge rate, perhaps, though Jackson Hole is pretty exxy $91 US if you buy a day ticket between December 19th and April 4th.

[Vet]

Pods, assume our dollar goes to 50c. There are resorts where the passes are $US300 to $US400 for Sunday-Friday skiing, and accom is $US75 per one bedroom unit (not per bunk bed) per night that sleep up to 4 on a fold out sofa. The cost in $A can double and its still cheaper.

There's western accom (almost) in japan for 2 weeks of accom, meals and lifts at $3500'ish for 2 weeks for 4 people. That was at the fx rate a fortnight ago. sounds half ok with jetstar 2-for-1 flights. Add say 30% for a worse case fx scenario and $3500 becomes $2275 per week for 4 people: $A568 pp per week sounds pretty good to me.

[Paul Oberin]

About $A5 of an Oz day ticket is for insurance, whereas its 90NZcents in NZ. In that lift ticket price is 'stamp duty' and gst (on which you pay 'gst on the stamp duty' + 10% of that as gst again": a double dip by our friends in Canberra imo.

Not surprisingly, the Alpine Resort Coordinating Council's reviews of 'where are we going' now has the answer - "we're going overseas". The nabobs just have NFI about operating costs, or why places choses to remain closed and unheated even when there's a dump in late september like last season.Ski resorts have no control over the fact that insurance premiums are taxed with both GST and Stamp duty, even though the States promised to get rid of stamp duty once they got GST revenue, complain to your state member if he is a labor party member, they are why we have double dipping on stamp duty as well as GST.

[Podlettte]

Vet, you really don't need to spam me with your deals, I know you can get great deals, I know but that's got absolutely nothing to do with the statement that Perisher was said to have the most expensive day ticket in the world.

Going on list prices, they probably do right now, though 91$ is $109 AUD when we were there it would have been $146 to ski for the day, we decided it wasn't worth it (top half mountain white out, bottom half kombi sized moguls glistening in the sunshine gracing the bottom half of the hill.

[Butters]

kombi sized moguls! wouldn't see that much snow at perisher! :P
I understand that in terms of costs of producing snow, making the best of very little, the Oz resorts have their work cut out for them, therefore costing more money.
I still think the industry is viable as long as climate change doesn't mean that there's no natural snow fall

[Mizu Kuma]

I think the the main reason that Aussie snow costs more is that the main resorts are based in the national parks. Operators and accommodation owners have to fork out lease costs and related taxes, and therefore have to pass that on to the "snowgoer". They even hit you up at the park gate to get in (the most expensive entry fee of any national park in the country, yet probably no more infrastructure than any other)

[Paul Oberin]

The key people at the resorts are employed all year round, yet they only have snow for 2-3 months in a good year, overseas resorts have twice that long to get revenue to pay overheads.
Resort entry is a bit over priced in my opinion, particularly in NSW, it was a fair price until some genius realised Victorians were paying a lot more and decided to price match it.

[spaz]

One dominatng thing I've noticed is that Australian resorts don't work the same as OS. The market is completely different.

I keep hearing that resorts in Europe and the states do better trade in summer with mtb and summer activities

[Vet]

Spot on Spaz. My week at Squaw is 33% cheapr than the smaller place on the lake which is 5-10 miles drive to about 6 ski resorts. Those Americans are nutz to pay more to stay off mtn. ;)

[Dippo]

One dominatng thing I've noticed is that Australian resorts don't work the same as OS. The market is completely different.

I keep hearing that resorts in Europe and the states do better trade in summer with mtb and summer activities

Very true. I have read in a MTB mag that Whistler makes more money in MTBing then it does with skiing. I've ridden with some MTBers that have never been to Whistler in winter.

[Old Boarder]

Apparently Perisher has the most expensive lift tickets in the world, followed by Aspen then Thredbo.


On a straight $ comparison - yes
But if you take into account the number of lifts or the amount of terrain that can be accessed, Perisher is among the cheapest in the world and NZ the most expensive.
So while the day price migh be cheaper in in NZ the value for the money is significantly less - excluding snow quality of course.

This becomes more significant when you consider that Perisher being the largest resort in Aus has correspondingly the largest costs - fuel, electricity, wages etc.

[Butters]

value for money less in NZ?
I'd rather fire down Treble Cone than Perisher everytime (assuming same snow conditions)
Perisher is a terrible resort - it's all flat, to get anywhere takes forever, because you need to take about 4 lifts.
Yes, they do have a large number of "lifts", the majority are T-bars, quite a few of which run parallel to each other, start within 50m, and finish within 50m!!
They do have a huge amount of terrain, but none of it is very steep, and they attract so many punters that it's still crowded.
To be honest, the only time I had an enjoyable day at Perisher is when we went out of bounds.
(and the name "Perisher". I mean, seriously, who could possible perish there)

[Butters]

I'd better put on my asbestos suit now I think....

[Old Boarder]

I still can't understand how someone who can afford to go overseas and pay more to ski can complain about prices.
I can't afford to go overseas at all for any reason, let alone boarding, but I can afford to board Australia.
Air fares alone to anywhere in the northern hemisphere are actualy more than I spend on a 5 day trip in Australia - door to door including accommodation food and travel.
And while air fares to NZ are cheaper I don't particularly feel like paying $80 to ski the same 3 or 4 runs every day. Eg Treble Cone only has 3 lifts
If I wanted to do that I would stay here and go to Charlotte Pass without the hassle of international travel.

[Mizu Kuma]

^^^ Check Mate!

[Butters]

I remember Treble Cone having only 2 lifts.
They're just incredibly well positioned to service the mountain.
Old boarder and I must be different, for being able to board down chutes and steeper terrain than perisher has to offer is what I really like.
I will agree that the NZ resorts are smaller, and you can feasibly get bored if you went to the same one day after day, but with 5 resorts to choose from (AND, you can get interchangable lift passes), it's a no brainer.
Having said that, not sure if I can afford to go to the snow for a week this year, so will probably do a couple of day trips down to Thredbo or Perisher if the snow is markedly better there.
And that's the market the NSW resorts really have in my opinion - the weekend warriors.

[pboards&mskis]

We're with you Butters... the last weekend to Hotham we did with friends cost $500 each staying 12 share, eating cups of noodles and pizza, cramming cars full of people and not wasting a cent. Even with airfares & car hire, the last trip to Treble Cone cost $2000 each all inclusive, and went for 8 days and ate out each night. And certainly didn't get bored at TC - Pboards hiked the summit, and I was scared witless half the time (some of the steepest stuff I;ve ever looked at!).

If it pukes snow, we will jump in the car and drive to Falls or Hotham... but our real ski dollars tend to go OS, because skiing in Oz just hears the cash register churn over starting with $30+ a day for resort entry and the weather has been really fickle the last few years. If the snow was amazing, you could cop it, but it generally hasn't been that great the last 3 years.

And if you go to the club fields in NZ - it gets cheaper again.... $65 NZD per day, $1 for a cuppa out of the urn, $3 for a pie from the warmer, no resort entry, no lift queues. Only draw back is you may need to traverse or hike to get the line you want....

[kort]

I still can't understand how someone who can afford to go overseas and pay more to ski can complain about prices.
I can't afford to go overseas at all for any reason, let alone boarding, but I can afford to board Australia.
Air fares alone to anywhere in the northern hemisphere are actualy more than I spend on a 5 day trip in Australia - door to door including accommodation food and travel.
And while air fares to NZ are cheaper I don't particularly feel like paying $80 to ski the same 3 or 4 runs every day. Eg Treble Cone only has 3 lifts
If I wanted to do that I would stay here and go to Charlotte Pass without the hassle of international travel.

The longer you stay overseas for, the cheaper it becomes. TC might only have a few lifts but there is plenty of terrain to keep you interested. Perisher might have more terrain but most of it is prett dull and un-challenging. I would rather a smaller steeper resort compared to a large flat one.

During specials, you can get flights to the USA for like $1100. Season passes can be $300-400....sit down and do the sums and its alot cheaper then you think. A 2 month trip to the USA with flights, accom, lift tix, etc can be cheaper then 2-3 weeks in Oz.

[Paul Oberin]

While we all tend to agree it is cheaper at current exchange rates to head overseas, I don't think the Aussie resorts are overcharging for lift tickets, with the amount of snowmaking we do here, better summer slope grooming and the high cost of wages and public liability insurance because we can't sign a waiver not to sue, it is no wonder the prices are higher, we need to move on and accept the higher prices, there is nothing anyone can do about it, and I am sure the resorts have heard it all before.

[Polaris]

and public liability insurance because we can't sign a waiver not to sue,

they fixed that in NZ, Colorado and I believe many European countries like Austria so why not push for it here?
I would be all for getting rid of frivolous claims from "common sense should have told you not to do it" claims getting even a sniff of a look in in the courts

[sam]

Our pollies should wake up to the damage they're doing with THEIR policies.

AAC Niseko's report, tonight, says 40,000 Australians skied Japan this season. That's an exodus imo.

The fx rate is never than bad if you plan ahead and allow a 30% worse case scenario.

Buller never lost a case yet, yet the premium is over $1.5m???? someone should go out to tender.

Audit Ministerial weekends maybe?.

I bet there's a lot our Government wastes money on too.

[Butters]

Public liability is a joke. You can sue the council for millions if you trip over an uneven footpath.
How about just getting slapped for being stupid and not looking where you're going? Accepting the fact that you take resposibility for yourself.
You're going to the snow, you could easily get hurt, possibly die. Don't like those odds, then don't go to the snow. It really is very simple.

[spaz]

Public liability is a joke, every operator has to have their own on top of the resort having it. The insurance companies are making heaps.

What is the waiver we sign when buying the lift ticket then Paul? Are you saying we don't have to sign it or that it means nothing?

[Vet]

When our resort entry and oversnow exceeded $1500 for 10 weekends, I discovered google and ski travel forums.

$1500 bought a tad more than 2 weeks of 3 bedroom accom in the US, or season passes for 3 to up to 5 resortd, or 1.5 return airfares to the US or 4 return seats to NZ. $1500 would buy up to 4 seats to/from Japan on the Jetstar 2-fer-1 deals too.

Or I can spend $1500 for a family of 3 to park and catch 10 return taxi rides from the overcrowded ill managed car park.

Not surprisingly, the Niseko Promotion Board claims 40,000 australians skied Japan in 2009/10.

And are those people, like Kort and Hoots, totally ditching skiing here? I know the number of skier days at a resort fell nearly 5% over 2009 despite Krudd's stimulus cheques and a promo of $20 lift tickets.

If I renove the 5000 skier days that the promo brought in, the drop was over 9% in one season, and last year there was snow all season. a 9% drop is a huge hit.

The Government and whoever can say 'short season' 'taxpayers can afford 'user pays'. Skiers can say 'bye bye'.

40,000 voting australians can't be wrong about Japan. And there's probably another 40,000 heading elsewhere.

Why? Value, reliability, culture, less queues, longer runs, better and cheaper accom, and cheaper skiing for their limited ski budgets imo.


As for concerns with fx rates, pay in advance: I just paid $A704 for a 1 bedroom self catering unit at Squaw in 2012 at 83c/US. Our 5 weeks in 2011 were bought when the $A was over 90c. I think lift season passes will be no more than $US50 a day in 2012 using certain vouchers in lieu of season passes- so even if the $A is 50c, a ticket in squaw, alpine, heavenly, kirkwood, mt rose, northstar and sierra will be $A100 - less than a day ticket today at Perisher. Or we'll grab the season passes that seem to rise 5% at most p.a to, for example, $US349.

Overall, people are voting with their feet for their own reasons, and the government has no idea on how it will only crucify skiing. The banal questions asked of clubs at a forum this week were funded by DSE. What another waste of taxpayer's money.

[Vet]

Public liability is a joke, every operator has to have their own on top of the resort having it. The insurance companies are making heaps.

What is the waiver we sign when buying the lift ticket then Paul? Are you saying we don't have to sign it or that it means nothing?

A lift company only partly lost one case: the gent bore the biggest part of his losses, and I think the ambulance chasers really won.

More recently the High Court sent a message by dismissing leave to appeal: I think the silver tongued court eloquently said 'bad luck fool, now pay the lawyers their big bucks', or words to that effect

Meantime, silly people don't realise the insurers are still charging because the average person doesn't know things have changed. But in screwing our PI insurers down by 6/7th, home and other insurance by 1/2 and a $70k premium to $40k with 12x the cover, maybe everyone's paying too much.

[Jahoota]

to clarify vets assumption "And are those people, like Kort and Hoots, totally ditching skiing here?"

I cant speak for Kort but I can happily state that I am not ditching sking here, only posponing it for a period!

This year I have put what funds I'd spend on a family ski trip here into the kitty that takes us for a family ski trip OS. My teens (young adults) are in the last couple of years of high school which makes it difficult to take to them out for school for a ski trip. That essentially means July school holidays only. Having done that once I vowed to not do school holidays ever ever again as it was not what I deemed good "value" due to limited snow and mega crowds (close to a riot at one lift one arvo). I am considering it much better "value" (tho not cheaper) to take them OS in jan school hols instead so we can enjoy what we cant in july school hols here - insanely good snow and no crowds.

No doubt once the spawn of my loins have finsihed high school I have no doubt that we'll be back to a weeks ski holiday in oz as I can do it cheapish. A snow holiday in oz in non school holidays is still better "value" for me than a snow holiday in school holidays.

I think the problem for us forum people is we don't often distinguish between single and family ski holidays. There are often vast differences in accomodation styles, budgets and activities for all. and hand in hand with that is the a personal view of whats "value".

For what its worth I think the resorts have had a crack at trying to provide stuff that "value" but they are badly hampered by acres of government departments and over complicated developnment processes. Perhaps all the resorts should be dropped out of national park system and be made there own little municpality. Just a thought....

[Paul Oberin]

Public liability is a joke, every operator has to have their own on top of the resort having it. The insurance companies are making heaps.

What is the waiver we sign when buying the lift ticket then Paul? Are you saying we don't have to sign it or that it means nothing?I am told you cannot legally sign away your right to sue in Australia, so a signed waiver is only a bluff.

[Mizu Kuma]

Last year went Threders for a W/E in spring, 4 star, 2 nights, 2 day lifts, 2 buffet breakfasts (lunch not req), for $240 pp.

Don't know if you guys think that that's expensive, but I sure thought it was good value entertainment!

And before ya quote things about snow quality, I honestly had a ball boardin the slush wearin nothin but a tee shirt, pants,boots and goggles! Oh and there was no wait time in the lifts because the crowds were the smallest that I have ever seen!

[sam]

Minister, our mountains are greatvalue . Look at them driving 'bumper to bumper' for hours, past traffic cameras, to get to the toll gate first

[sam]

[QUOTE=pboards&mskis;75258]We're with you Butters... the last weekend to Hotham we did with friends cost $500 each staying 12 share, eating cups of noodles and pizza, cramming cars full of people and not wasting a cent. Even with airfares & car hire, the last trip to Treble Cone cost $2000 each all inclusive, and went for 8 days and ate out each night. .... our real ski dollars tend to go OS, because skiing in Oz just hears the cash register churn over starting with $30+ a day for resort entry and the weather has been really fickle the last few years. [QUOTE]

Your Hotham trip was $250 a day for a weekend. Your trip overseas was $250 a day for a week. Jahoots trip is about $400 per person a day. Travellers to Japan seem to say $300 as day is normal. KOrt et al seem to say they do their ski travel for $100 (I think from memory) a day. Fa
No wonder Mr Perisher squels with glee when he's running to the bank

[kort]

to clarify vets assumption "And are those people, like Kort and Hoots, totally ditching skiing here?"

I cant speak for Kort but I can happily state that I am not ditching sking here, only posponing it for a period!

My last day of riding in Oz was 2007. I wouldn't say I have totally ditched riding here, as I am considering one weekend with some friends, which will prolly be more of a "social" outing....mind you if I don't think the conditions are worth it, I won't ride. Don't want to fork out $100 for a ticket with substandard snow.

I guess I have gotten used to not riding the Oz winter, but have managed to occupy my weekends nicely with other activities like running, mountain biking, etc.....keep me fit and ready for those winter trips!! USA 2010/2011 here we come!

Whilst I would love to ride year round, I would rather save my pennies for o/s where the likelihood of great quality snow/powder is higher compared to the Oz snow. The thought of driving 3-6 hours every weekend puts me off as well.

I know people who love skiing Oz and good on them - I just elect not to.

[Vet]

Doing both is best, especially with the sale airfares.

(VA has one on atm: $977 to LA return on the dates I chose in March/April for a 2nd trip).

I'll go with a group who share here and o/s. This season I'll be in a rangie with a vip parking bay, and a 3 star suite for eight 3-day weekends. In the US, they get a nice bedroom in a condo with a $US129 season pass. Sounds fair to me.:happy:

[kort]

Ohh a March/April return trip to the USA sounds sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo nice........Not sure I can convince the +1 though. I could go solo of course....hmmmm!!!

[Mizu Kuma]

Ohh a March/April return trip to the USA sounds sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo nice........Not sure I can convince the +1 though. I could go solo of course....hmmmm!!!

yeah, but you'll have to factor in the cost of the operation to get the jewels sewn back on after ya break the news! :D

[Vet]

I'm not worried about Mrs Vet coz I think our home and contents insurance covers the family jewels :D

Well Taxi isn't joining me on that trip Kort.

Because I'm supposed to work sometime in btween the Jan/Feb trip and the end of the season, I arrive in LA at 5pm 27 March and will fly to Sacramento or Reno. The next decision is whether to stay at Squaw Valley (and there were $99 condos this March) or stay at Heavenly to do Heavenly & Kwood. Or both Squaw & Heavenly/Kwood. Fly back from LA 11.30 Sunday 10 April.