Cigarettes to rise by 25% from midnight tomorrow.

[Paul Oberin]

As a non smoker that is the best news I have heard in a while, hopefully it may help prevent more young people taking up the habit, and the extra tax can offset some of the huge cost to the health system.

[The Frog]

Will help pay for them when they go into hospital with smoking related illnesses too, which seems to be the main reason for the hike.

[Mizu Kuma]

I also heard that the tobacco co's could be bringing a law suit estimated around $3 billion for the Gov messing with their logos (intellectual property), so
if they do they should increase the tax further to recoup these costs as well! (imo)

[The Frog]

yeah that's been in the planning for a while now...I do alot of work for tobacco packaging/design....would make my job a hell ot a lot easier if the packs were just black and white with the health warnings. :)

[Jahoota]

I think its bad.... only 'cause it will discourage smokers so they'll stop smoking... and the government will get less tax.... so they'll start slugging the rest of us by raising beer taxes!

[Mizu Kuma]

I think its bad.... only 'cause it will discourage smokers so they'll stop smoking... and the government will get less tax.... so they'll start slugging the rest of us by raising beer taxes!

NNNNNOOOOO!

[Vet]

The Govt outlawed the smokeless 'cigarette' that heated nicotine in a vial. No smoke to annoy anyone, and no ash to inhale. Call me a cynic about this tax take.

Obesity is the No.1 killer and booze causes cancer. Why pick on addicts of a legal substance without taxing fat foods, and drinkers.

In fact, why not review the whole tax system, as did Russia, Hong Kong and other places where the flat maximum rate of tax is 14% to 19%???


In the 1950s, tax returns allowed deductions for health expenses, council rates on your home and rental home, and mortgage repayments: I have the forms in Archives. Hospitals, schools etc were world class. Families lived on one wage.

Over time these deductions vanished, and the tax take grew. Elections promise to fix things, and nothing really changes, except the tax take.

In 1996 Access Economics or the social service body ACOSS investigated how much 'tax' was actually paid by the average worker. First is income tax for federal obligations like social security and health, leaving the take home pay. Then there was a sales tax built into goods bought with the after-tax take home pay. Then there were State taxes to pay, which haven't been replaced by the gst. Then there are the 'user pay' charges like school levies, petrol tax, gst on the petrol tax, the water and power bill's "Parks Charge" "Drainage (sewer pipes replacement) charge, and the infrastructure charge to replace power. And one power company pays its associate $80m in fees p.a which no doubt you're paying for. Then capital gains tax was brought in. Then gst, medicare levies and upteen other taxes. Now alcopops tax, cig taxes etc etc and a wider grab on land taxes and deemed stamp duty if you buy a house and want to nominate your +1. There's even 'reverse onus' sections that force you to pay State Revenue upfront BEFORE you can challenge their decision in the costly Supreme Court. There's sections requiring your conveyancer to dob you in if he suspects you are cheating State Revenue.

Meantime schools, hospitals and the like aren't getting better. Assets are 'priviatised'. Qld overpaid public servants by $2m ... and spent $7m to recover the $2m. Victoria blew $2.5 billion on a ticketing system ... rather than take the dud computer back to the shop. Insulation schemes etc are just more waste. Meantime there's tax on power or a reduction in the pension where one sold solar power to the grid.

so how much tax, levies, excises etc etc really go to governments and privatised companies who charge 'infrastructure' charges to replace the power poles and sewer pipes they bought from the government?

And if you want others to pay more tax, what are your views on a fat tax and a tax on cancer-causing booze?

I fear it'll just make legal-addicts turn to chop chop as inflation, government wastage on insulation schemes etc, eat into the take home pay.

[Vet]

I think its bad.... only 'cause it will discourage smokers so they'll stop smoking... and the government will get less tax.... so they'll start slugging the rest of us by raising beer taxes!

Ross Greenwood's estimate of the cost of smoking over 40 years (using the average increase in price at 3x the cpi) is $1.5m. Hoots, the government is hooked on tobacco taxes so they'll need to tax someone else for something else, like fat.

[Vet]

I also heard that the tobacco co's could be bringing a law suit estimated around $3 billion for the Gov messing with their logos (intellectual property), so
if they do they should increase the tax further to recoup these costs as well! (imo)

and ditto if they move to 'plain label' packaging of beer and spirits.

[Azz]

Vet, when are you and I (and a select few others) going to start running this show?

[The Frog]

and ditto if they move to 'plain label' packaging of beer and spirits.

They also took the GHW (Graphic Health Warning) legistlation to appeals court and lost. They have been planning to take this one to court for some time and have already put plans in place for if/when they lose. Already cigarette vending machines have moved towards black and white signage, as have all service stations and retail outlets. It's inevitable.

[Podlettte]

Interesting approach. Raising the price/increasing the taxes will possibly change some people's approach to smoking, mostly younger people who are cash limited. will this create an even bigger black market for ciggies?

making the packaging black and white or grey will, IMO not change a single thing, smokers don't walk around with their ciggie packs on display like and iThing, though young ones like to buy the prettier packages, so possibly it will stop some younger ones, mostly girls I'd say, from starting. That's a good thing IMO, but what else can be done to reduce the number of smokers already out there?

I think one of the biggest ironies is that in Japan in public spaces it's rude or inconsiderate to smoke, yet it's ok to smoke in restaurants and karaoke bar cubicles. URGH!

I've never smoked, but mum is a pack a day girl, has been since she was 17 and a nurse, she's now 70!

[Pistonbroke]

...making the packaging black and white or grey will, IMO not change a single thing, smokers don't walk around with their ciggie packs on display like and iThing, though young ones like to buy the prettier packages, so possibly it will stop some younger ones, mostly girls I'd say, from starting.


Simple way to overcome the packaging image is 3rd party ciggie covers, just like mobile phone covers etc. These will be all the rage for anyone who is put off by the look of the pack but not off the fags.

[Vet]

$90m of piblic servant wages will be paid til 2013 in the aborted Climate Change Project. Come on, what else are the mug punters going to be taxed to pay?

Azz, you start the Revolution and I'll hire Harry Miller to sell tickets to the guillotining.

[24]

Vet you talk about taxation like it is some corporation taking everyone's money, and then hoarding it up...

the argument against high taxation needs to be more nuanced than that - when taxes are high, expenditure is high - there is no shareholder to take the money left over, so it goes in welfare payments or tax returns, if it isn't used to build school halls, or to employ someone.

That 90 million is being used to keep a few hundred people in a job, so they can buy stuff from the company you work for, or the shop you run. We can put them out of work, but that would only be a good idea if there are other jobs for them. Otherwise, they will stop buying things from your shop.

In the end, big governments mean more 'churn', money being pumped through a system - that can be a bad thing, especially where there is a labour shortage. But it can be a good thing, like when businesses and individuals stop employing people, or building things, and the govt takes over.

So by all means hack on the pollies for stupid things they do... but use good logic for it.

In the case of taxing ciggies, we all whinge about our hospital system... doesn't it make sense to use a single mechanism to discourage a behaviour that costs the health system massive resources, and at the same time raise more money to better resource those hospitals?

You are right, the same principle should be used on other non essentials that raise the burden on hospitals disproportionately... alcohol (already taxed heavily), fatty foods (not really taxed specially)... skis/boards? motorbikes... who knows what else!

my $0.02

[Vet]

24, the issue is waste and mismanagement.... and then compelling people to pay extra for the mistakes.


A third of the workforece in Greece are public servants who don't produce anything, yet on your logic theose workers should be churning money into the economy. Is their economy going gangbusters or bust?

Our bureaucrats on the Climate Change Project are on $160,000 to $298,000 a year to do nothing til 2013. Would you mind using your money to pay them.

Regarding the black market, a while ago a prosector in the ATO excise division said he was swamped under 1500 files. The estimate was 12% of the total tobbacco market - huge money. There were raids on people growing 'illegal' tobacco with the same type of operation as meth labs and I just see a burgeoning black market will grow. Meantime normal innocent folk with strained family budgets will become crims rather than give up: the penalty iirc was $50k and 2 years jail last time I looked.

Regarding teenagers taking it up, you want to hang around the local Magistrates Court as these crims puff away before pleading guilty for breaking into cars, stealing mobiles etc. The price hike will be just another cost-of-living they have to recoup as they puff their "I'm successful and can afford it" image.

[Podlettte]

does raising the price discourage existing smokers though?

I honestly don't believe it does, I've asked friends that are smokers if the price hikes put them off smoking at all. Every single one of them said nope, but things like trying for kids or getting fitter does. So yes, it's great more money is being raised for hospitals, but to market it in a way that says it will discourage people from smoking is misleading

[SnowFlake]

Focus on the tax effect re revenues and cost to the community of treating dying cancer patients is only part of the story. Not so many years ago a close friend died of cancer - a painful way to end a life - he was a chain smoker. What the community lost was a dedicated educator and that is the real cost. My mate was a top line skier - grace on skis personified and he cut his teeth on the citizen ski racing promoted many years ago by big tobacco - it was the thing to do. The tax is really a case of 'the medium is the message'.

[Caboose]

hmmm

health reforms - bribing state governments cost federal approx $5Bn
increase taxes on Smokes creates approx $5Bn in revenue

coincidence?

[Caboose]

You are right, the same principle should be used on other non essentials that raise the burden on hospitals disproportionately... alcohol (already taxed heavily), fatty foods (not really taxed specially)... skis/boards? motorbikes... who knows what else!
my $0.02

my view is the smoking directly effects other people's health, all the others indirectly effect other people

personally the person who wanted to buy $5K worth of smokes last night should have to smoke them all at once

[rider26]

All I can say is... GOOD!

[Mizu Kuma]

[QUOTE=Podlettte;72039]does raising the price discourage existing smokers though?

Bang on Podlettte!

It doesn't discourage them one bit, I know this as I am a reformed smoker myself. The only real way to put a dent in this health epidemic is to ban the sale of them outright. They will smoke anyway I hear you say. Will people really go to that much trouble to get a cigarette? Like I said, I was a smoker and every time I had one I hated it! If it's not readily available, you can't take them to work, shops , restaurants and anywhere in the general eye of the public, then I really think that the majority of people will simply go "cold turkey", and that will be a benefit not only for smokers but also the health system.
Then prosecute dealers, growers and traffickers, and will make smokers criminals only if the law chooses to do so.

Alcohol I hear you scream!
The only problem with alcohol is that people abuse it. Clubs and pubs should shut at 10.30pm and the bar should only be open for 2 hours over lunch then reopen at say 6.30pm for dinner and social drinks. Pokies should be banned so people can go and be social either with family and friends at the club or pub, or stay at home and be with family and friends. Places and events such as horse racing also glamorise the consumption of huge amounts of alcohol.

so basically it's all about having some ground rules just like the ones you had when you were growing up! and this is why, unfortunately, we have to have Governments setting down some sort of control. From now on I will refer to the leaders of the Labour Party as Uncle Kev and Auntie Jules.

I think I have ranted enough now!

[Jay]

[QUOTE=Podlettte;72039]does raising the price discourage existing smokers though?

Bang on Podlettte!

It doesn't discourage them one bit, I know this as I am a reformed smoker myself. The only real way to put a dent in this health epidemic is to ban the sale of them outright. They will smoke anyway I hear you say. Will people really go to that much trouble to get a cigarette? Like I said, I was a smoker and every time I had one I hated it! If it's not readily available, you can't take them to work, shops , restaurants and anywhere in the general eye of the public, then I really think that the majority of people will simply go "cold turkey", and that will be a benefit not only for smokers but also the health system.
Then prosecute dealers, growers and traffickers, and will make smokers criminals only if the law chooses to do so.

Alcohol I hear you scream!
The only problem with alcohol is that people abuse it. Clubs and pubs should shut at 10.30pm and the bar should only be open for 2 hours over lunch then reopen at say 6.30pm for dinner and social drinks. Pokies should be banned so people can go and be social either with family and friends at the club or pub, or stay at home and be with family and friends. Places and events such as horse racing also glamorise the consumption of huge amounts of alcohol.

so basically it's all about having some ground rules just like the ones you had when you were growing up! and this is why, unfortunately, we have to have Governments setting down some sort of control. From now on I will refer to the leaders of the Labour Party as Uncle Kev and Auntie Jules.

I think I have ranted enough now!

I agree.

[Jay]

what else can be done to reduce the number of smokers already out there?

Round up all the smokers who refuse to quit, then line them up in columns of 5 to save bullets. Too extreme? It might be but it works on politicians, reporters and junkies as well. :p

[Paul Oberin]

hmmm

health reforms - bribing state governments cost federal approx $5Bn
increase taxes on Smokes creates approx $5Bn in revenue

coincidence?Pity the bribes weren't higher in that case.

[popshuvit]

I am all for anything that tries to reduce the number of smokers.
Although I tolerate smoking, as some of my family & friends smoke, what I cannot stand is someones 'inconsiderate' second hand smoke.
There is nothing worse that getting up 2 go 2 work, you are at a crowded bus stop & there is a smoker who has no regard to other around them.
All u can smell is the crap they expel from their lungs & it makes your stomach turn.
I can also see that it will make it harder for someone to bludge a ciggie off someone because of the rising cost.

[Vet]

There is nothing worse that getting up 2 go 2 work, you are at a crowded bus stop & there is a smoker ....

What about the stench of wasting 2.5 billion on a ticketing system so we can be next to all those sweaty underarms on overcrowded un-airconditioned late trains that lack proper brakes?

[Vet]

Five surgeons are discussing who were the best smokers to operate on.

The first surgeon says,
'I like to see Accountants on my operating table because when you open them up, everything inside is numbered.'

The second responds,
'Yeah, but you should try Electricians! Everything inside them is colour-coded.'


The third surgeon says,
'No, I really think Librarians are the best; everything inside them is in alphabetical order.'


The fourth surgeon chimes in,
'You know I like Construction Workers. Those guys always understand when you have a few parts left over at the end, and when the job takes longer than you said it would.'


But the fifth surgeon shut them all up when he observed,
'You're all wrong. Politicians are the easiest to operate on. There's no guts, no heart, no balls, no brains, and no spine, and there are only two moving parts - the mouth and the arsehole - and they are interchangeable'.

[Billy]

hahaha, gold :giggle:

[Mizu Kuma]

But the fifth surgeon shut them all up when he observed,
'You're all wrong. Politicians are the easiest to operate on. There's no guts, no heart, no balls, no brains, and no spine, and there are only two moving parts - the mouth and the arsehole - and they are interchangeable'.

yeah but when ya cut em open the @#!* would go everywhere!