fks/pivot/tt appeal

[JakeK-T]

so i ordered some gotamas and need a binding. having flirted with the idea of dukes, i think i'd rather hike with the boarders than use a marker... so i'm wondering if anyone who works at a ski shop or who knows of one or someone or anywhere that has some new pivots/fks. I know a couple of others here are in the market too so any info would be good!

i'm mainly after p14/axial140's or fks155. and they have to be black.

-J

[Paul Oberin]

The P14 I have are black with yellow writing.

[JakeK-T]

ahhh Paul. you're a genius. i might have to buy them off you in a week or so... ultimately i'm after fks' but beggars can't be choosers and they would look oh so nice alongside the 10s you sold me in the quiver.

however, i'd like to keep this thread open for just a general binding discussion and why oh why they stopped making them

[Silence]

I had p18's for sale! bah. Cost me $65 to ship them to the US.

Honestly if you can find the FKS120 the have upward release on the toe which (IMO) is a better rig than the p15/18/fks155/185

I'm looking for some fks155's too.. so if i can come across a few pairs then i'll hit you up. I know of a few guys selling some, but they will run you about $300 shipped here.
I've also been wanting to call the rossi rep for a while, but now that i've finished exams i'll get onto him and see is there are any racestock gear left in the factory. I'll let you know if i can get anywhere with that.

Paul any turntable bindings (Not pivot, but full 360 deg turntable heel like these)?
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2585/p18011ed0.jpg

[JakeK-T]

yeh i'm genuinely afraid of 18s... plus i want new... and black... (not picky at all)

my only concern about the 120s would be if i wanted to run them at 11/12... honestly i'd be willing to spend up to about 300, i mean they are super rare and it's not like they're going to break in a hurry. i can get the brakes bent properly at uni as well

[JakeK-T]

ps. thanks silence

[Silence]

As far as i know, Rossi got rid of the turntable heel because of compatibility with the integrated skis these days. The rossi rep didn't understand the logic either, as outside of race skis, the FKS are most often used by freestyle/freeriders on flat skis without any integrated system anyway, they are the safest heel ever made, and they have the best contact with the ski letting it flex naturallyly etc..(I could go on for hours about the benefit of FKS..) THe benefit of the PX geel is that it offers far more alestic travel than before, and i believe more than any other consumer binding. (Doesn't outweigh the benefits of FKS though, IMO)

Why do you want to run them at 11/12? Even still - these days all bindings are designed to work effectively at any level within the din range. Older bindings were suggested to be set as close to the middle of the DIN range as possible, but they according to ISO and DIN standards, modern day consumer bindings need to be able to operate effectively at all levels (with a certain margin of error)..

From memory, with your weight etc, unless you charge HARD, you probably don't need to be cranking the DIN that high..I ski above what I need, but not by much..so i'll run about 8-9 and i'm 5'10-11, 170lb, 315bsl, L3.

Seriously, look PX12 retail for about $400 or more here. Paying that for a set of FKS isn't foolish given that they will SERIOUSLY last you longer than 3 sets of skis. i've never seen a more bombproof set of bindings. I literally almost took the end of my finger off when engaging those p18's - my nail is still bruised from a month ago.
The only issue with FKS are the brake width. Yeah they can be bent upto 130mm if you really know what you are doing, but they are a race binding and therefore come with a stock brake around the 75mm mark (can't remember exactly how wide). You need to know what you are doing, because they are extremely solid brakes and will snap if they aren't bent properly. Rossi can't supply replacement compatible brakes either and spare parts are hard to come by (sometime you can be lucky on TGR)..plenty of tutorials on bending them, and i'm sure you know all about that anyway..

If you come across a spare pair of FKS155/120, PLEASE let me know. I'm in.

[ 19.06.2008, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: Silence ]

[Paul Oberin]

I do have some FKS in the shop, and fairly sure I have some bindings with full 360 heels, will check tomorrow.

[JakeK-T]

i will run them at a max of 10 here, and even that may be overkill, but i'd like the option of 12+ for my euro trip. and i totally get that they will work at the limit, but i like to keep my options open if that makes any sense...

also re. brake bending, i discussed it with one of the aero techs at uni and he's pretty confident he can do it to factory spec, which i think i'd rather trust him than myself.

and yes, if i come across any i will definitely hook you up!

[Seth]

Hasn't rossignol brought back the old axial heel?

[Silence]

Fixed/PX/Axial2 heel yes, Pivot/TT no.

[Taxman]

Originally posted by JakeK-T:
...having flirted with the idea of dukes, i think i'd rather hike with the boarders than use a marker...
-J Myths and richard waving....

Marker got a bad reputation with the TGR crowd because the biometric toe releases upwards in a backwards fall. This means if you are a gnarly core dude, you will not be able to back slam a 30 metre huck and ski away.

Ignore the Duke/Jester binding and you are overlooking one of the best bindings made today.

[Silence]

couldn't agree more on the Duke/Jester being a different kettle of fish to other consumer marker gear.

[ 20.06.2008, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Silence ]

[Paul Oberin]

The very latest bindings from Marker as seen on the newest K2 Crossfires are a much improved version, and will see the problems of pre release gone from that brand, now all they have to do is live down that reputation, which will probably take a while.

I am very impressed with the new design, it will take Marker to one of the most sought after bindings on the market now, especially for the free ride skiers, as they will have a huge range of elasticity to absorb shock when landing a jump.

[Paul Oberin]

Yes, I do have a few sets of the older FKS binding with the 360 degree turntable heel. $200 a set.

[Silence]

do you know which FKS they are? DIN, toe etc

[Paul Oberin]

Din to 10 only, and not the heavier full metal one, and has the Geze designed toe.

[Silence]

ah ok - Geze was the better toe anyway!

[Taxman]

Remember Geze bindings, were very nice, had some on a pair of Hexel skis in 1981.

[JakeK-T]

Taxman, wasn't dissing markers is general, just that the duke is really the only downhill binding with a touring feature, and if i was to go that way i wouldn't have any company on the way back to the top of my bc jaunts

[Paul Oberin]

Yeah I know that, what i was saying is that Marker have made some serious changes to the 2009 Markers that are starting to show up this year, so far I have only seen them on the newest K2's, hopefully they will flow through to the other brands that use Marker as well.
In the past Marker have copped some bashing for being a binding that pre releases when pushed hard, and that will not be the case with these new ones.

[JakeK-T]

does the pivot series ie. p10, p12, p14 have upward release toes?

[Silence]

99% sure they do, i know the p10 & 12 did.

[Paul Oberin]

Originally posted by JakeK-T:
does the pivot series ie. p10, p12, p14 have upward release toes? Yes, they do release in an upwards twisting direction but technically not completely vertical other wise you would pop out almost every time you landed a jump.

[Rednut]

remember my stack at falls...

[Paul Oberin]

Originally posted by Rednut:
remember my stack at falls... Yes, and the binding rotated at the toe as a result of a backward twisting fall and had to be pushed back into position, probably saved you from a nasty injury.
They are a great design, they do have a good amount of upwards compensation, which make them great for twin tip skis.

[JakeK-T]

and, correct me if i'm wrong, fks155/185 do not (release in an upward twisting motion)

[Silence]

I may have to grab those 14's with the geze toe. just need to justify the purchase because i don't have a spare pair of skis to put them on yet..

[Silence]

Originally posted by JakeK-T:
and, correct me if i'm wrong, fks155/185 do not (release in an upward twisting motion) 155/185 do not upward release, 120's do.

[Paul Oberin]

Originally posted by JakeK-T:
and, correct me if i'm wrong, fks155/185 do not (release in an upward twisting motion) As far as I know every binding on the market does now, and that is a good thing, it has saved many ACL's.

[JakeK-T]

but 120s aren't all metal, are they?

[Silence]

the 120 has a different toe to the 155/185. THe 120 has upward release and the 155/185 doesn't.

e.g

http://media.newschoolers.com/uploads/member/pictures/1211794636p18_015.jpg

Top toepiece is the same as the 120, bottom - same as the 155/185 - one piece not going anywhere, sorry about the res.

[Silence]

To reiterate, i am 110% positive that the FKS155 and the FKS185 do NOT HAVE upward toe release, but the 120 does. However the 155/185 toepieces are stronger, more metal, more durable.

[JakeK-T]

yep, like everything it's pretty much a trade-off.


my next question would be the 360 degree heel vs the +/-10 or so pivot heel. my understanding is that you only need a couple of degrees of rotation (depending on sole length of course) to be released from the toe. if that's correct, emphasis on the if, what's the advantage of the full 360?

[Silence]

Well now you are talking about FKS v. Pivot series.. :D

The differences/benefits/downfalls between pivots and TTs don't just like in the 30deg v. 260deg - it's the way the binding operates, screw pattern etc etc
The turntable design makes the binding safe in most falls. If you are talking about falls where you want to release from the toe / in a fall where you are pivoting off your toe, or your ski is kicked off to the side, they (FKS) will be more inclined to lock you in, until something gives (your knee or ankle usually). This kind of fall is fairly rare, and is almost never a problem.
Once again though, VERY rare for this type of fall to occur..if it does though

With FKS, my take on the idea behind the design is it forces your boot to pivot from the center of your leg, instead of behind it on the boot lug. this makes it safer in almost all falls.

the consumer level pivot is an awesome binding and I will forever ask the same question 'why' to rossi reps when i see then, and they will forever not be able to understand the logic either... The pivot takes everything about the turntable, and makes it easier to use. The release is also much smoother. However, the boot-to-ski interface tends to get a little sloppy over time due to the smaller pivot diameter. The pivot toe is prolly the safest toe piece in the world, but also is a lil sloppy. The turntable is also a bit burlier, although the pivot is plenty strong. The mostly metal turntables can also be rebuilt/repainted, while the pivots have a shorter overall lifespan.

Bottom line you are talking about 155/185's being majority STEEL and the consumer pivots (10/12/14) being mostly plastic

If you aren't really heavy on your bindings go the pivots. If you trash your gear then go the FKS/P Race

I had someone on here or ski.com.au offer close to 300 for my p12s and out of principle i'm keeping them.

Personally i like having solid bindings under my boots. 18din is too much for me though..

The choice for me is between the FKS120 (Upward release + tt heel), 155 Metal toe - stronger, pivot 12 or 14, or the old school FKX/geze toe - each have their benefits, but i guess i'm a ROssi Guy..


Trivia:
May be an urban myth, but I heard somewhere that an FKS185 set at the maximum DIN is stronger than a human femur which will spiral fracture at a DIN of 14 - guess it just takes the right type of fall.. ;)

[ 23.06.2008, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Silence ]

[JakeK-T]

wow - if that happens to your femur i'd hate to see the destruction on your tib/fib/acl... a mate of mine had his femur broken in 9 places at school and he 'technically' died three times on the way to the hospital. not nice.

back to the binders... i really liked the 'feel' of my old p12s, can't really attribute it to anything in particular but i guess it felt more like ski/boot/binding were one item ie. the ski flexed pretty much exactly how it did flat, didn't feel like i was being pushed forward all the time and most importantly i didn't get thrown out whenever i slightly missed a switch landing (but did get thrown out when i completely missed them). having said that, i haven't really skied alot of binders, mainly demo rossi's and sally's in the early days then a handful of days on p12s and 1 or 2 on jesters

[Paul Oberin]

We tend to differ in our opinions on the upward release on the one piece binding that you call the FKS, I have some FKS here with independant wings also, my thoughts are from actually pulling them apart and seeing how they work, and the Look toe design cannot prevent an upward movement in a backward twisting fall, sure the race version makes it highly unlikely due to the very heavy springs, but back off the springs to below the lowest setting and you may see it is capable of it, if you put the ski on the floor and stand on the front of the toe piece, it will move upwards.
The key to it is its design, Look use a post mounted on a plate which is fixed to the skis by screws, if you back off the springs totally you can remove the housing and springs and see that the post has a flat spot facing the front, this flat spot is what keeps the binding facing forward, and the DIN force is varied by a spring with a flat washer at one end pushing against this flat spot on the post, if an upwards force is applied to the toepiece in a backward fall, the spring within the housing is compressed allowing a limited amount of upward movement.
The Pivot toe is a variation of this old design and takes it one step further and the wings which hold the boot down can also rotate a full 360 degrees if required, this allows for a more consistent diagonal release in the toe independent of the DIN setting to some degree.

Pull a few apart or back off the springs and you will see how they work a lot better.

If jumping and landing with falling backwards hard, most heels will move backward enough for your toe to stop holding the boot lug down anyway, that is regardless of being a step in design or PX / Pivot design.
With regards to the two different TT heels, the one that rotates 360 degrees does not allow release sideways at the heel like some people think, it only assists the toe in release just like the other one, it was stopped from being made simply so as to allow the heel to recentre by itself rather than have the user bend down and recentre it after a fall, some people didn't like the fact that it had a spring holding it in centre and thought this wasn't as good as the 360 degree model in regards to helping the toe release, the newer one was also mounted on a plate for a greater range of adjustment to cater for more boot sizes, as the full 360 degree one didn't have a great range of adjustment, if the user bought new boots.

[Silence]

Interesting, although i've never been into racing, I always thought the RK(?) plate was a race thing?

[JakeK-T]

the spring responsible for re-centre-ing in the pivot wouldn't be overly strong would it? similar to say the ones in brakes?

ps. only found out what din stood for the other day, too bad it wasn't on any of my exams

[Paul Oberin]

You are correct it is not all that strong, but the 360 degree one allowed almost no resistance to the release of the toe, every bit of resistance adds to the pressure on the toe release, all be it very minor, still even with that spring they are way better than a step in heel design.

[ 23.06.2008, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Paul Oberin ]

[JakeK-T]

would it be massively stupid to take out said spring?

[Paul Oberin]

You could but I really don't think you would gain anything from it.

[JakeK-T]

might give it a go on my urbans and see what happens...

[Silence]

Whats the point?? And on what bindings are you talking about removing the spring on?

[Paul Oberin]

I doubt the benefits will outweigh the pain in the butt they will become when you have to put them on and you have to hold the heel in centre each time to step in.

[JakeK-T]

p12s, no point, bindings are ruined anyway, only used for stairs, and i'd like to take a pair apart

[Silence]

haha this is going to be funny..let us know.

[Paul Oberin]

Be careful if you alter or loose any of the parts you could get hurt, sure take a set apart to see how they work, but not if you intend using them again, the springs usually have a spacer, if that gets put back in the wrong place the DIN will read at a wrong setting.

If I get time tomorrow I will take a set apart and post the photo's so you can see how simple but effective the Look system is, almost no moving parts yet very safe, just a spring pushing against a flat spot on a post.

[JakeK-T]

thank you Paul, like i said, i only use them for stairs, for example the town hall, so i think inaccurate din is the least of my worries, but i appreciate your concern and wealth of knowledge. i wonder if there is much money in binding development? after all, one of the key developers of ski bindings was an aerospace engineer...

[Paul Oberin]

I often wonder what happened to the electronic one Marker developed.

The one big advancement in bindings if someone could invent it, would be a binding that adjusted the DIN as a person skied at a different skier types.
By this I mean a binding for a type 1 skier is set lower than for a type 2 or 3, as bindings are less likely to release the slower you go, so a real lot of great skiers get hurt when skiing at low speed while their bindings are set to type 3 or 3+, one of the greatest ski instructors in Canada Steve Smart is such a person, he did his knee at low speed.
If a top end skier could set his bindings at type 3+ for when he needs it, but have them automatically readjust to a type 1 when he is going at that low speed, would be a winner and worth a lot of money.
So all you inventive types out there, get inventing and become very wealthy, after you sell your patented binding to a binding company.

[JakeK-T]

i'm on it

[JakeK-T]

fks155 and 185 at altitude in melbourne.


for a nice 500.


silence, my chances of wrapping them round some goats?

[Silence]

You can definitely get them around goats if you know what you are doing. FKS brakes need to be bent with caution though (As i'm sure you know)

In saying that, i've seen plenty of Hellbents rocking FKS'

[JakeK-T]

hmmmmmmmm... tough decision to be made soon

[Silence]

solid clamps for that ski though - great setup

[JakeK-T]

yehhh i know... i kinda think i have to. i want to do the ski justice.

[Silence]

Are you thinking the 155's?

[JakeK-T]

yep

[Silence]

Does the shop know how to bend FKS brakes? Thats probably the most important thing, as you can't just go and buy spare brakes for the 155's..

[ 02.07.2008, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: Silence ]

[JakeK-T]

yehh i was going to ask them that, i reckon if i bought them from them they'd do it but if i walked in with my own...

[Silence]

yeah i don't think they would touch them if you took a pair in..if you buy them there then they would have to replace the brakes if they snapped one wouldn't they?
Easy to snap them if they don't disassemble the heel (but disassembly method takes ages)..I would probably expect to pay $100 for the brake bending and mount

[JakeK-T]

on top of their 500 price tag... ahhhhh

[Silence]

You should be able to negotiate something with the $500 price tag (given that they are at least 2 years old..)

[JakeK-T]

yehh well i can get 15% off through the uni ski club... but still, i was hoping for 500 mounted and bent

[Silence]

A phonecall wouldn't hurt - i'd say they would be the most expensive alpine bindings they would have outside of jesters (and possibly PX race which i doubt they would stock)

Also they wouldn't be sold too often as they are quite a specialised binding, so for them to sell some would certainly be a priority on their list.
i.e They are more likely to hook you up on a mount on the 155s than if they were any other set of walk-out-the-door bindings

[ 02.07.2008, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Silence ]

[JakeK-T]

they do actually stock px race... something about an affiliation with a race club...

yeh the guy gave me a massive lecture on how they wouldn't even think about bending the brakes. he then went on to recommend some px12's. i think i'll start asking around at shops till i find someone willing to do it... hopefully i can get some cheap(er) off TGR

[Silence]

Massssssive difference between PX12 and FKS155. Huge.
The only problem with getting the PX 15 is that the DIN starts at 8..
FKS155 is still probably the best light/strong/high DIN binding available IMO.
If you have the equipment and have a vice, you could definitely try it yourself. There are some great p18 brake bending tutorials out there which are pretty straight forward.

If you don't want to do the FKS bend yourself, Don't discount the Salomon STH16..plus you can easily get a widebrake for them.

[JakeK-T]

yehh i think i will have a crack, provided i can find a pair south of 300. i'm pretty set on the 155s at the moment to be honest.

[Silence]

Yeah you should be able to do that.