Thermals

[aami]

Hello
Just wondering if anyone can recommend a good thermal? I've read that Icebreaker merino ones are great, and after checking their website they look good. I'm looking at checking their range at snowgum. I have prev had just poly ones but find they hold too much sweat (I perspire heaps!)
Cheers
Tass

[Princess]

Yep, Icebreakers only here. Bit pricey but well worth it.

[Taxman]

Ditto.

[Tobi]

Everyone raves about the icebreaker.

Personally I don't rate them. I find I still get cold.

I brought a Burton one last year and it's toasty as. Love it.

It all come down to personal choice though.

[kort]

Besides Icebreaker, another brand to consider is Ibex...they make some rather nice merino wool base layers/thermals as well. +1 uses them and rarely complains of the cold. +1 feels the cold horribly (more then anyone I know) so if she says something is warm is must be :)

[skijacski]

I have the CW-X conditioning wear, which are insulator expert tights - you can get the tops too.

They are great for me as I really sweat it up, but they also are better than skins in that they are insulated.

http://www.backcountry.com/store/CWX0014/CW-X-Insulator-Expert-Tights-Mens.html

These are the mens, but I have the womens and they are specific for women - excellent in sizing.

Ski all day and no pain, then back to the slopes for 4 months without problems.

[skijacski]

The womens are on special!

http://www.backcountryoutlet.com/outlet/CWX0015/CW-X-Insulator-Expert-Tight-Womens.html?CSP_ID=FTS_bcs_CWX0015

[Podlettte]

I'm not really looking, I'm just browsing. Evil Jax!

[Silence]

Icebreaker are great if you perspire a lot.

[rover]

anything poly will hold the sweat and also hold the sweat smell.....if you do sweat a lot you should stick to the ones made out of natural fibres.
I use a merino wool thremal shirt made by dri as a bone...then my jacket...thats plenty. Strangely I use exactly the same overseas in japan and the US

[John Deere]

Thermals come in three main types, Polyester, Polypropelene and Merino Wool.

Polyester: Wick moisture well, but hold the stink badly, ok for warmth.

Polypropolene: Wick moisture well, stink after a while (but not as bad as polester) and are slightly better than Polyester for warmth.

Merino Wool: The warmest but don't wick moisture as well so if your sweating in them you may end up colder due to being wet.

I use Polypropolene when doing any sort of activity or when the temp is at risk of warming up and Merino in extreme cold temps or when not moving much (night time in the back country!)

[John Deere]

After reading the thread again, a couple of people are saying Poly (Poly propolene or polyester???) hold moisture and Merino is good if you perspire more.....I have found merino to hold moisture more than poly of either guise. I encourage you to ask this question in the BC forum on SI.....I think you will find concurrence with my experience.

Rover you say "natural fibres" are good.....surely you are not including cotton here......like writing a death warrant for anyone going BC and weather turning bad!

[ 24.05.2008, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: John Deere ]

[rover]

Originally posted by John Deere:
After reading the thread again, a couple of people are saying Poly (Poly propolene or polyester???) hold moisture and Merino is good if you perspire more.....I have found merino to hold moisture more than poly of either guise. I encourage you to ask this question in the BC forum on SI.....I think you will find concurrence with my experience.

Rover you say "natural fibres" are good.....surely you are not including cotton here......like writing a death warrant for anyone going BC and weather turning bad! i was not refering to cotton

[james]

with a bottokm layer of some form, a good mid-layer and a good jacket, you shouldn't really get cold in any layer.

Does everyone else normally wear 3 layers?

[John Deere]

3 or more for me depending on the temps.

[booter]

i know this is a bit different, but i got some full leg padded pants from planet altitude, (lots of brands and different styles out there) but they keep me super warm, and you have the bonus of padded knees, hips and tail bone!

[kort]

Originally posted by John Deere:
3 or more for me depending on the temps. yup ditto for me......if its -25 outside 3 layers wont keep me warm enough - gotta go one more :)

[John Deere]

I tend to use lighter layers and more of them to help regulate temps....especially on those freezing mornings and warm afternoons we sometimes get in oz.

[james]

JD what do you do with the layers when you take them off?

By the way I don't know that I've skied in anything quite that cold before.

[Caboose]

Backpack

[Legolas]

I have a super fine icebreaker that is also just a really pretty top. I also bought a slightly thicker grade for cold days. My coat, Orage, is thin but very warm.

Even in -13 in Japan, I was super duper warm with both layers under my coat. In Thredbo last year I only wore the thin one under my coat and stayed well toasty with pit zips and the neck open!

Suffice to say, it depends where you are skiing and how physically hard you work I guess!

p.s. I wear skins on my legs, though in Japan I had skins and thermals.

[aami]

Legolas
Do you find wearing skins (I assume snow skins?):
1. Help recovery like they claim to?
2. Are not warm enough for Australian ski conditions?
cheers

[aami]

Legolas
I have also considered getting snow skins for the legs but don't think they would be warm enough..but my pants are pretty warm they have great lining on the inside + and i get hot easily..
also, how are the skins with absorbing and holding in sweat? can u feel the cold sweat when sitting on chair lift or not moving around?

[Legolas]

aami,

I just have sport skins, but the staff at Snowbound tell me that the only difference is the colour of the stitching.

Yes, I absolutely find they help recovery both at the snow and the gym (now that I am a super hot gym junkie :rolleyes: ). Seriously though, Mr Legs had a much harder recovery after his first day skiing (without skins) than me, and he was much fitter than me last year.

I have only worn skins and my SOS pants in oz, and if anything, get a little hot on the bluebird days.

re the last question...I don't sweat so wouldn't know!!! tongue.gif

...but when I glow, I haven't noticed feeling cold on the lifts. The only time I really notice it is when you actually come in from the snow and your muscles start to cool down, so you get chilly but you're supposed to leave them on. I think Kaz takes hers off, has a warm shower and then puts them back on for recovery. I just try to keep them on for an hour or so, then have a hot bath.

I do recommend skins.

[tambo]

Icebreaker... love them to bits. The best part is there are many different weights to choose from, so you can find one to match just how "hot" a person you are... ;) I wear the pretty ones. vest/singlet t-shirt long sleeve light ones all yr round summer and winter depending onthe day. Never been too hot, never been too cold.
Love the socks. Mind you I am not a sweaty kinda person :D

I get cold if I wear skins on the slopes, but put them on as soon as I get home

[skichic]

actually I emailed skins and asked them about the difference between ski and sport and got this very long answer:

Thank you for your enquiry regarding Skins™ products,



To answer your question for you,



The main difference between the Sport & Snow is that the Sport has more seams going down the leg, which have been designed to wrap & support key muscle groups to reduce muscle movement & focus the direction of the muscle. The wrapping effect & specific compression also dramatically reduce muscle vibration resulting in less soft tissue damage & muscle soreness. The combination of muscle wrapping with BioAcceleration Technology™ is proven to reduce (DOMS) & accelerate recovery time.



The garments are made out of exactly the same fabric, the snow are brushed on the inside and this process makes the garment feel a little warmer against the skin. There is less muscle wrapping seams at the bottom part of the leg to avoid interference with ski boots.

Skins™ are unique in their combination of features, which work better than any single component.

The key is in Skins™ revolutionary BioAcceleration Technology™ and the features that are built into the smart fabric of all Skins™ products.

Benefits include:
• reducing lactic acid build-up, increasing muscle oxygenation and enhancing circulation;
• focusing muscle power;
• drawing moisture away from the skin;
• optimising body temperature in warm or cool conditions;
• preventing odour through antibacterial treatments;
• providing sun safety with 50+ UV protection.




Skins™ is body-moulded gradient compression performance equipment with built-in BioAcceleration Technology™ which will enhance your performance in training, competition and recovery.

The future of technical wear is engineered gradient compression. When compression is engineered to apply a balanced and accurate surface pressure over specific body parts, it triggers an acceleration of blood flow. This increases oxygen delivery to working muscles to enhance their performance.

The circulation improvements also help the body to eliminate lactic acid and other metabolic wastes. The combination of these effects allows you to work at a higher rate for longer.

The improved oxygenation is most marked in recovery from exercise. As a result, muscle repair is accelerated, with a greater effect if your Skins™ are worn for longer, The best effects on delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), which can last for more than 48 hours, are seen after 8 hours during which time pain, muscle weakness and alertness are dramatically improved.



Skins™ are unique in their combination of features, which work better than any single component.
BioAcceleration Technology™ is a term trademarked by Skins™ to refer to the benefits incorporated with engineered gradient compression.

The future of technical wear is engineered gradient compression. When compression is engineered to apply a balanced and accurate surface pressure over specific body parts, it triggers an acceleration of blood flow. This increases oxygen delivery to working muscles to enhance their performance.

The circulation improvements also help the body to eliminate lactic acid and other metabolic wastes. The combination of these effects allows you to work at a higher rate for longer.

The improved oxygenation is most marked in recovery from exercise. As a result, muscle repair is accelerated, with a greater effect if your Skins™ are worn for longer, The best effects on delayed onset muscle soreness (which can last for more than 48 hours) are seen after 8 hours during which time pain, muscle weakness and alertness are dramatically improved.


Skins™ snow tops and tights have been developed, tested and proven to help you ski harder, for longer and recover faster. The engineered gradient compression provided by Skins™ increases your performance through greater muscle support, enhanced circulation and improved body temperature optimisation.

All skiers and snowboarders will have experienced that burning sensation in their legs after a long run. Wearing Skins™ snow while you ski or snowboard will help eliminate that burn, reduce muscle fatigue and minimise muscle injury. Skins™ snow also keep your muscles warm and wick perspiration away from your skin keeping you dry and comfortable.

A second pair of Skins™ snow is beneficial to wear after the sun sets to help your body recover while you party or sleep ensuring you'll be fresh and ready to hit the hill again the next day.

I hope that this helps to answer your question for you,

[John Deere]

Originally posted by james:
JD what do you do with the layers when you take them off?

By the way I don't know that I've skied in anything quite that cold before. Well, when BC I throw them in the pack, if in a resort (I find resort skiing far easier to predict what I need in the morning and don't often change) I either whack it in the pack or sometimes in a bumbag....If I am not carrying either, I just sweat!

[Legolas]

hooley dooley skichic! thanks for that info (which would have been good when snowbound had their sale on last week! I was just thinking I'd go back and say "your staff told me there's no diff and I would have bought them at 20% off", however I have just realised that it wasn't the staff that said that now...was it Kaz...

Reading it has made me realise I do get impressions around my shins from the stitching due to boot pressure. It's not painful, but could be more comfy without it.

[Legolas]

tambo...they do socks?

[skichic]

I bought a pair of of ice breaker ski socks yesterday graemlins/skier.gif nice and warm smile.gif

[claydough]

got a deal on altica polypropolene thermals from a Katmandu store today.Any 3 items for $60(long sleeved T,short sleeved T or longjohn.Will they survive a wash I wonder!

[John Deere]

Best Polyprop thermals I have used are a brand called "hot chilli's" from Canada. Only got em cos on the plane on the way over me and the missus realised we left ours in the dryer graemlins/big_laugh.gif

But they are warm as and don't hold a stench....never seen em in oz tho :(

[karen97]

Originally posted by Legolas:
hooley dooley skichic! thanks for that info (which would have been good when snowbound had their sale on last week! I was just thinking I'd go back and say "your staff told me there's no diff and I would have bought them at 20% off", however I have just realised that it wasn't the staff that said that now...was it Kaz...

Reading it has made me realise I do get impressions around my shins from the stitching due to boot pressure. It's not painful, but could be more comfy without it. Probably was me, thats what I was told by Spertscene in Mac Cent

[karen97]

Originally posted by John Deere:
Best Polyprop thermals I have used are a brand called "hot chilli's" from Canada. Only got em cos on the plane on the way over me and the missus realised we left ours in the dryer graemlins/big_laugh.gif

But they are warm as and don't hold a stench....never seen em in oz tho :( I have Hot Chili socks, they are warm as toast but they stank royally!

[Dr D]

Originally posted by claydough:
got a deal on altica polypropolene thermals from a Katmandu store today.Any 3 items for $60(long sleeved T,short sleeved T or longjohn.Will they survive a wash I wonder! altica work fine

used them in Japan -13 deg and my ski pants are just a shell

[TB]

Originally posted by skijacski:
The womens are on special!

http://www.backcountryoutlet.com/outlet/CWX0015/CW-X-Insulator-Expert-Tight-Womens.html?CSP_ID=FTS_bcs_CWX0015 You are evil as previously mentioned, I just bought a pair but the #@$% shipping cost me nearly as much as the skins. Still prob cheaper than here and Ive wanted some that have at least a little thermal protection anyway. My +1 has the sport skins and thinks they are the greatest thin ever. I have resisted as I can be a bit of a cold frog so wasn't ready to give up the thermals.

[skijacski]

TB, you get together with a few friends and buy a few it then reduces the price of shipping to 18bucks as we bought 5 pairs. They are much better than the aust skins, warmer and I feel much more efficient for the legs.

Arrived in 3 days.

[Simo_tele]

icebreaker are the only way to go if you plan on living in them for more than 2 days. Synthetics are great if you can wash them but if you can't prepare to lose sleep due to your own stench.
Layering with good quality gear is the key.

[tambo]

Originally posted by Legolas:
tambo...they do socks? They do great socks in a number of different weights, including ski and board socks.
Love the every day and hiking socks... not the ski ones.. too thick.

And they do great undies and singlets too.... and glove liners..... and now kids wool thermals...!...grab a catalogue

[Legolas]

wool undies? I've heard of having an itch to scratch, but...

[Taxman]

Currently snotty nosed with a cold, but sung as a bug wearing one of my Icebreaker tops.... and it ain't ichy.

[claydough]

wool undies won't help with that itch,Legless :D

[Mazza]

Dear Fellow snowatchers if I may put my 5c worth. It all comes down to choice, and how much you want to invest on a pair of Thermals.
There are many popular brands on the market.
As previously mentioned Wool is ok for warmth, but not so good if you are active and perspire a lot. Polypropelene is good allround fabric for wiking moisture and reducing smell, good thing about it is that you can give it a quick rinse and it will be dry in about half an hour. Brands that I sell at the shop include, Sherpa, Cross, Everwarm, Rip Curl (antibacterial) Quiksilver, and Roxy for the chicks that want a brand name smile.gif
As far as for layering, I recomend thermals top and bottom to wick moisture away from body, Fleece jumper for warmth top half, ski jacket and pants for the elements.
Lets not forget the importance of a good beany, good socks and gloves, as 70% of body heat is lost through head, hands and feet.

[John Deere]

^^^ this is good advice!

[aami]

So basically wool is not good for wicking moisture/sweat? reading icebreaker website will have you believe otherwise, and anywhere where they talk about merino..i haven't had much luck re wicking sweat away wearing polypros

[honeybunny]

We wear skins definitely and as I don't do any form of exercise in the year except shopping, I have never ached in my first day of skiing after I discovered skins from Travelplan (way before they become popular). For tops, it is definitely Icebreaker but I bought my daughter one from Rojo and it is a mix of wool & ? and it is supposed to wick away the moisture better than just pure wool. As she's a child, it's hard to get an opinion from her.
All said, if you wear 'good' ski suits, I don't think the moisture is a problem. I remember the snowboard pants from Rebel, cheap but you sweat in them and I am not those who sweat much. But my Spyder ski pants never give me that problem.
So, all other factors must be taken into consideration when you get the opinions of the public- what ski suits they are wearing, breathable? waterproofable?, etc. So to ensure you have a comfy day, make sure your ski outfit is also breathable.

[Mazza]

Good call Honeybunny
Good outer layers is a must
Please read attached
http://www.sherpa.com.au/shop.php?categoryId=2
http://www.sherpa.com.au/shop.php?categoryId=3

[Gerr]

Another 2 cents worth

Layer 1 Skins
Layer 2 Polyprop thermals
If really cold - Layer 3 Polyprop Tracksuit pants and Top ( no zip or pockets)

If you can afford them , skins are amazing - I never got sore legs or back once I started wearing them skiing. They are really good for the unfit!! Really helped with the fatigue over a week as well. Found I was less tired, little or no muscle soreness, etc.

[Snow Yeti]

Agree with you Gerr smile.gif

[John Deere]

Originally posted by aami:
So basically wool is not good for wicking moisture/sweat? reading icebreaker website will have you believe otherwise, and anywhere where they talk about merino..i haven't had much luck re wicking sweat away wearing polypros Wool is OK for wicking sweat, but not as good as polyprop......never use cotton!

[Caboose]

i throw another 2c in the basket

the polypro will dry fast with your body heat

i'm assuming merino will dry, but not as quick as polypro

and as JD has said don't use Cotton - it never drys

[Podlettte]

Originally posted by John Deere:
Merino Wool: The warmest but don't wick moisture as well so if your sweating in them you may end up colder due to being wet.

I use Polypropolene when doing any sort of activity or when the temp is at risk of warming up and Merino in extreme cold temps or when not moving much (night time in the back country!) Wool actually still keeps you warm when it's wet, that's one of it's advantages.

[John Deere]

Well, thats a bit misleading, wet wool still contains insulating properties but nothing like when it is dry! Best not to use it if you sweat alot or when hiking up Watsons Creek ;)

[Legolas]

ordered my skins as recommended by skijak... graemlins/woohoo.gif

my legs hurt now after todays gym session. Wish I had them now

[ 05.06.2008, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[TB]

Know what you mean, started my Rock climbing course today (sans skins). Already sore-tomorrow will ****

[NissTrust]

i'd like to also recommend Sherpa polypropylene thermals, i have the uppers and the longs, and they are fantastic, wicks away sweat, dont really smell at all and keeps me very warm.
here is a link:
http://www.sherpa.com.au/shop.php?categoryId=2

[NissTrust]

oh yeah one mor thing this is waht sherpa say about the two type of material:
http://www.sherpa.com.au/fabric_comparison.php

[Podlettte]

Originally posted by John Deere:
Well, thats a bit misleading, wet wool still contains insulating properties but nothing like when it is dry! Best not to use it if you sweat alot or when hiking up Watsons Creek ;) I didn't say they were the same as when dry, you really need reading lessons tongue.gif

Wet wool will keep you warmer than wet polypro or other synthetic.

I may not have done BC stuff with wool thermals, but I sure as hell have enough experience with them to be able to speak up about it ;)

[John Deere]

It's a hair split, you never qualified your statement one way or the other and it is entirely reasonable to assume you meant "as warm as" which is why I said your statement was a bit misleading.

Anywho......

Polypro dries fast enoughj that your often dry before you can get cold.....wool doesn't!

It is my considered opinion that when doing strenuous activity involving sweating profusely, you may be briefly warmer when you stop in wool than in Polypro however, half an hour later you will be dry and warm in the polypro and at a bit chilly in the wool!

Feel free to ignore this opinion, however I do encourage you to try both so that when you report back I can say I told you so :D

[snowman]

polypro for sure, they dry so fast .........even when hiking hard.

[Podlettte]

You do realise people don't have to have the same experiences as you and in any test their are variables so what works for you might not work for me? ;)

i'll agree to disagree

[SA]

I'm betting JD sweats more than Pods tongue.gif

[BrumbyJack]

Merino makes me itch...

I'm trying some new Ground Effects merino singlets, they were itchy when new but they seem to be getting better. Nice and warm.

I've only worn them to work so far, so no idea how they perform when I'm really sweating heaps.

[elim]

adding my 0.5 cents, skins are good. I bought them this year just to be used on the snow however i couldn't resist so I wore them during my tennis match (which lasted 3.5 hours).
My legs didn't feel sweaty however as some has mentioned, skins won't keep you warm as thermals.
You can actually feel the blood circulating around your legs (if you have skin pants) and I guess this is one of the few reasons why it helps muscle recovery and soreness.

[John Deere]

Originally posted by Podlettte:
You do realise people don't have to have the same experiences as you and in any test their are variables so what works for you might not work for me? ;)

i'll agree to disagree My statement is qualified enough to be applicable for everyone under the conditions mentioned, I will agree to agree that your are incorrect on this occasion tongue.gif

[The CEO]

Anyone know who stocks the kids Icebreaker products? Sydney stores seems to stock the products, but not the kids range and tadpole and tadpole 2 both need thermals for Falls.

Mum might get some too!

[John Deere]

Snowgums on Kent St stock kids IB gear. Good range too!

[The CEO]

Thanks looks like a trip to Sydney then.

[skijacski]

Mrs Frog,

Here is a link for purchasing over the net. I don't know the prices in Australia.

http://search.backcountry.com/exec/?mv_session_id=CBe5uPo4&q=Icebreaker

Kids stuff you can also get from them. I tend to buy a few things so that the cost of items reduces with the bulk order shipping cost.

[Legolas]

Originally posted by The CEO:
Anyone know who stocks the kids Icebreaker products? Sydney stores seems to stock the products, but not the kids range and tadpole and tadpole 2 both need thermals for Falls.

Mum might get some too! Snobound chatswood have a great range of icebreaker, kids thermals and kids ski gear generally.

Skijackski is also correct about backcountry. I just ordered a few bits, but have to say that by the time I'd paid the freight, the saving was marginal compared to the prices at Snowbound when I was there today.

Snowbound are also really patient and helpful with the littlies (we love free stickers smile.gif )

[ 14.06.2008, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[The CEO]

Thanks all - About $100 US to get my goodies shipped so we might go for a drive.

Shall see what Frog says!

Legolas - I'm waiting on stickers too!

[Legolas]

graemlins/big_laugh.gif I was talking about the free stickers at Snowbound!!

...but now that you mention it... graemlins/cold.gif

[The Frog]

I did tell her that after I saw her post.

...and yes I do need to make more stickers.

[Legolas]

Originally posted by skijacski:
I have the CW-X conditioning wear, which are insulator expert tights - you can get the tops too.

They are great for me as I really sweat it up, but they also are better than skins in that they are insulated.

http://www.backcountry.com/store/CWX0014/CW-X-Insulator-Expert-Tights-Mens.html

These are the mens, but I have the womens and they are specific for women - excellent in sizing.

Ski all day and no pain, then back to the slopes for 4 months without problems. Just thought I'd bump this.

I followed Jax advice and bought these for me and Mr Legs.

In the lead up to our last ski trip I had done a fair bit of leg work, but even so, I wore these every day and slept in my "skins" at night (...most nights graemlins/cold.gif ). I did not have aching muscles at all really.

I think day three I hopped out of bed a tiny bit stiff, but it quickly eased.

The CW-X are also slightly brushed on the inside, so offered axtra snuggly warmth.

Highly recommend them. Mr Legs also found them good, though couldn't come at wearing them to bed. He had done no prep for skiing, so really should have had sore muscles. He seemed a tiny bit worse off than me, but that might be because he would take them off as soon as we got home, rather than wait a while.

All in all, well worth the bargain that they were! (shame about the shipping, but buying a few backcountry bits and bobs (e.g. icebreaker stuff) dilutes the cost further.

[ 19.07.2008, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[NissTrust]

I know this is a bit off track, but ask any physio and an alternative to skins for better recovery after a hard session in any sport is a good massage using deepheat or tigerbalm over the effected muscles, just moving all that lactic acid out the way. i guess its a cheaper alternative to skins as a recovery tool.
my 2cents smile.gif

[CycloneSteve]

OK I have been looking at Icebreaker shirts to wear while skiing. Now the question is...which type? The 150, 200 or 260?

[skichic]

get one of each...for all conditions..or for layering. I have various weights of various merinos, I just choose on the day and layer accordingly.

[Hardy]

i use X Bionic undergear. they are a compression garment, but it also concentrates on regulating body tempreature, and keeping you from overheating and over cooling. and, unlike skins, they will actually keep you warm.

i got mine from Snowbound at Chatswood, they seem to have a good range of them there. i also got the wife some Everwarm polypro thermals from snowbound and she loves them.

[CycloneSteve]

Originally posted by skichic:
get one of each...for all conditions..or for layering. I have various weights of various merinos, I just choose on the day and layer accordingly. One of each!!!!! Do you know how much they cost?!?! Each one is $80 - $120. I aint made of money you know.

[Legolas]

Originally posted by CycloneSteve:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by skichic:
I aint made of money you know. </font>[/QUOTE]then you should quit while you're ahead!! graemlins/big_laugh.gif

[Legolas]

Originally posted by NissTrust:
I know this is a bit off track, but ask any physio and an alternative to skins for better recovery after a hard session in any sport is a good massage using deepheat or tigerbalm over the effected muscles, just moving all that lactic acid out the way. i guess its a cheaper alternative to skins as a recovery tool.
my 2cents smile.gif only cheaper if you've a partner handy to do that for you and you don't have three kids demanding food, warm baths, hot chocolates and cuddles. Otherwise, you'll pay for your skins ten times over before the weeks is out!!!

[NissTrust]

hehehe good point Legolas smile.gif